Vedic Leadership seminar given by HH. Bhaktividya Purna Swami at ISKCON Sydney in 2010
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So now this next section we’ll discuss It’s chatuh shloki. The chatuh shloki are the essential four shlokis of the Vedas. When Krishna taught the Vedas to Brahma then having studied them then he asked Krishna what is the essence. So Krishna gave these four verses to Lord Brahma. later Brahma gave those to Narada and then Narada gave them to Vyasa. So it has been written the Mahabharata with the idea of creating the conclusion of the Vedic literature. Then, Narada Muni was not so impressed. He felt that it felt short because it may have given all the basic and such knowledge of the Vedas but it didn’t actually give the essential understanding of the Vedas. So Vyasadeva was then given these four verses and from that he expanded the Srimad Bhagavatam. So the Srimad Bhagavatam is the conclusion of all the Vedic literatures, and we see Prabhupada always mentions that, he wrote it in his maturity. So in his maturity then that he put this together. So the Bhagavatam is the essence of the Vedic literatures. The four shlokis are the basis on which the Bhagavatam is written.
So all the 18,000 verses are in some way or another explaining these four. So if you understand these four, you understand the Vedic philosophy. Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.32says: “All of Me, namely My actual eternal form and My transcendental existence, color, qualities and activities — let all be awakened within you by factual realization, out of My causeless mercy.” So this is the principle that we were discussing before of daiva, is that the Supreme Lord is by his grace when he allows then you can know him. The mechanics of that is that God is unlimited and the jiva is limited. The limited jiva can never actually comprehend unlimited. It’s not possible. But because the Lord is unlimited by his grace then you can know him. The jiva can contemplate things that are not much bigger them, but actually understand God it’s only by his grace. So here we see that Krishna is giving Brahma his grace.
Having donе that he speaks the chatuh shloki. So it starts with 33: “Brahma, it is I, the Personality of Godhead, who was existing before the creation, when there was nothing but Myself. Nor was there the material nature, the cause of this creation. That which you see now is also I, the Personality of Godhead, and after annihilation what remains will also be I, the Personality of Godhead.” So this first verse is establishing that Krishna is everything. It’s very, very important to know. You’ll say, we know that but that means the key that you use it and you keep in your pocket, you start your car with. That’s Krishna. Why do the keys work? A bunch of metal makes another piece of metal move down the road. It’s because of Krishna’s potency. Krishna is the key. He is the essence of anything so this key works because it’s Krishna.
So like this, anything you have is because of Krishna. Your glasses work because Krishna is proper vision and proper understanding. So the glasses are the medium through which the actual being able to perceive things correctly functions. So like this, you can take anything. This chair, it has potency. It keeps you off the floor. So that potency is Krishna. And that form of that potency is the chair. So Krishna is keeping you off the floor and the chair is serving Krishna who keeps you off the floor. Their pastime is happening. You want to take and be involved then you have to sit on the chair. If you don’t sit on the chair, you won’t be involved in that.
So everything is Krishna. Basically speaking, most at least in modern philosophies and religions, this point is not understood. God is the creator. He is the controller. He is all this and that blah, but does he actually control the material world? According to these modern religions – no. Why? Because bad things are happening to good people so God couldn’t be involved in that because God’s all good. Therefore, he’s not who control the material energy but Krishna is making it very clear. No, I am everything. I am a controller of everything.
The problem that comes up is that living entities don’t behave properly. So the results that they get aren’t good. So to understand this, you’d have to understand eternal. What is God? What is the Jiva? What is the soul? Then you can understand why bad things happen to good people or good things happen to bad people. But because most don’t know what the soul is, don’t know God, don’t know the material energy as we’ve discussed previously, therefore, they can’t deal with this. So they have to change the philosophy for the lack of understanding.
So you end up with two Gods. There’s God and then there’s Satan, who is the powerful person, who controls this world that keeps you here. And God can’t interfere. So actually there’re two Gods. Though to them only one is important but still there are two. And then they have more fun and then they make it three, right? And if you ask them, no but it’s all one. So they’re very confused. So the point is that God is everything so that means anything if it’s connected to him can be divine otherwise then there’s a confusion between divinity. Basically, all the different groups of let’s say Christianity is a discussion over the divinity of Christ. That’s all. Depending upon the ecumenical counsel that’s there that – you know – some groups only accept up to the second. Some then accept the third, and this is where the difference comes between them. Is Christ God or not? Because they can understand that if the body is engaged in the Lord’s service then it becomes divine so he has to be divine by some other process because they don’t understand this so then they have to say he is God.
So this problem comes from that if one is going to understand the philosophy you have to understand that actually Krishna is everything and everywhere. So that means that every moment with anything and any situation you can see God. That’s what’s the essence of the Vedic literature, these verses. They’re showing how to see God in anywhere and anything. So this idea, it’s Kali Yuga so God’s laws don’t apply. We forget who made Kali Yuga. The cycle of four yugas is whose arrangement? It’s God’s, so the laws of nature still applies because devotees will say, oh it’s the modern time, all these things don’t apply. It’s ancient. It’s archaic. Since when did God become archaic? Eternal means eternal. That’s the thing. Scriptures are eternal. God’s eternal. The Jiva’s eternal. The laws of nature are eternal. So if one understands this, then one can eternally apply it. If not, you won’t be able to apply God consciousness in your life today.
So this problem comes from that if one is going to understand the philosophy you have to understand that actually Krishna is everything and everywhere. So that means that every moment with anything and any situation you can see God. That’s what’s the essence of the Vedic literature, these verses. They’re showing how to see God in anywhere and anything. So this idea, it’s Kali Yuga so God’s laws don’t apply. We forget who made Kali Yuga. The cycle of four yugas is whose arrangement? It’s God’s, so the laws of nature still applies because devotees will say, oh it’s the modern time, all these things don’t apply. It’s ancient. It’s archaic. Since when did God become archaic? Eternal means eternal. That’s the thing. Scriptures are eternal. God’s eternal. The Jiva’s eternal. The laws of nature are eternal. So if one understands this, then one can eternally apply it. If not, you won’t be able to apply God consciousness in your life today.
The next verse is 34: “O Brahma, whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness.” So now he’s pointing out He is everything but you’re not going to deal with everything, except for that one guy in that one car that I saw. But other than we are not dealing with the whole material energy. We’re only dealing with what we value, those things within the material energy that are important to us that’s what we deal with. So that value, that is Krishna. That’s who you see. So He is everything but how do you know what to look for because you’re not going to look in place that doesn’t matter. You’re going to look like what’s underneath that potted plant over. It doesn’t matter to you, but to an ant that’s big. that’s their home. So they value that but for us it’s just a place where dirt collects.
So what is of value to you, that’s Krishna. That’s the key how you see Krishna and everything. Because anything you deal with is because you’re dealing with it because you value it. So seeing Krishna as what you value then that brings back all the elements behind that. So you value something but you’ve chosen that particular – by your conditioning you have a particular value and you’ve picked a particular form of that value. Because there are, as we discussed before, there are many ways to accomplish something but you’re not interested in those other ways. If a person is coming in, he just wants to get there like that he takes the lift. If the other person wants to stay out of the way, to see what’s going on or he’s into his health so he likes to run upstairs, burn off those calories so there’s going to be a difference on what they choose.
So the point is that whatever is of value to you. What you work with, then that’s because you’re looking for Krishna in it. You’re not looking for anything else. Dead matter will not attract the soul. Krishna is Madan Mohan. He is the One that attracts our attention. The soul being eternal cannot be attracted by dead matter. So that means the soul is actually attracted by Krisha. But here’s the point that He makes. “If it is without relation to Me, it has no reality. That’s my illusion energy. So that means that He is everything. He says: “Without relation to me, then that’s illusion. That’s the material energy.”
So if you see in connection with Krishna then you’re Krishna conscious. It’s in connection with it. If you don’t see it that’s maya. That ide of just being practical and just you can’t get it be fanatic all the time, that is illusion. All the things you deal with in that state of mind are illusory. They’re there. They’re doing the thing that they’re doing but you’re only getting a mundane result and the soul can’t get anything out of the mundane result. They’re getting it from the value within that mundane result and that value is Krishna. So you can’t get away from Krishna .It’s a matter of if you see it then you’re elevated. If you don’t see it, you’re in illusion. So that’s the point. If it’s not connected to Krishna it doesn’t matter how nice it is, how wonderful it is, how intelligent it is, how practical it is. It is illusion and it would give that effect in your life. You will be in illusion. So someone will say: “No, no, we’re not fanatic”. It’s great but you will find yourself in an illusion.
So, we’re saying it has to be connected. So these are the formulas how to connect it. That’s how to connect it. That reflection, which appears to be in darkness and appears that the material energy is darkness but actually it is Krishna and one of Krishna’s energy. So the darkness comes from us not connecting it to Him. That illusion means we don’t connect it to Him so that’s ignorance. That’s darkness. If you connect it to Him, it’s not illusion. It’s not darkness. It’s still inferior energy but it won’t give you the result of ignorance.
Then text 35: “O Brahma, please know that the universal elements enter into the cosmos and at the same time do not enter into the cosmos; similarly, I Myself also exist within everything created, and at the same time I am outside of everything.” So this becomes very important because these other two elements are how you can see in God and everything. But at the same time as though it’s personal it’s not dynamic in the relationship with God. He is everything. That’s just the fact. What do you value? That’s Him. So you’re interactive with that but you’re interactive with Him because it’s your value. But here in this verse He is bringing out the element in that He is a person beyond this. So therefore, the element of Him, what He as a person is interested in, what He likes, His relationship with you, that’s another thing.
So just as in the universal elements, earth is like a chair. The chair is made out of earth, but at the same time it’s not that is the earth and then there’s no more earth. Earth remains, all these forms are there. So at the same way Krishna has entered everything but He as a person still remains. So the first verse is talking about understanding Krishna on the Para Brahman level. It’s the Brahman platform but we know that this Brahman is coming from Krishna and it’s not different from Him. So we call Para Brahman. But it’s just the qualities of Krishna. The second verse is discussing Paramatma Who is controlling the universe. He is getting things done. You have a desire, He sanctions it and it happens. So He’s organizing these things, but He’s organizing according to your interest, your desire. So the first one intellectually you can see Krishna and everything. The second, you specifically see Krishna in relationship to those things that are important to you and become dynamic. But the third verse is talking about Him as Bhagavan. He has a particular interest in lifestyle and way of dealing with His devotees. So even though you see all these other things, it is Him but still He as a person is still separate from that.
So this is important also in just even in one devotional life, of course it’s going to be important because you’re doing so many things. You’re dog tailing everything in Krishna’s services. Tha at’s very nice. That’s the process. But at the same time one should be endeavoring to come to the point of knowing that Krishna is also a person. What does He like? In other words, am I doing anything that Krishna likes or am I only doing things that I like and then connecting it to Him? That’s good but at the same time it’s nicer if there’s something more seems. The mother provides her child everything and does everything. If he wants to eat, just says something and the mother gets it together. He wants this and that but at the same time if there’s a time when the child recognizes the mother as a person and what she is doing in this relationship and relates on that platform, that gives a whole different dimension to the relationship. Or another example, а man has a company. So the company is his energy, his concepts and ideas you can find everywhere, like here when I was going to the bathroom and on the wall it says: “This toilet is flushed by the rainwater”. So that means somebody that has value of natural and not wasting water, this and that, so many things but at the same time everything is rainwater or whatever. So, that means this current idea of environmental is pervading everything. So the same way is a person, his ideas, and ideals pervade the whole company. At the same time you can deal with the company do all the things right and you do everything according to the rules and you do well in the company and the company does well and everything’s fine but the person who has the company still is separated from the company as a person. You can have a personal relationship with him. It doesn’t actually have anything to do with the company. So you can have a relationship with God that doesn’t have anything to do with material energy.
So then the fourth verse 36 – “A person who is searching after the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, must certainly search for it up to this, in all circumstances, in all space and time, and both directly and indirectly.” ( 21-30) So now this is defining how you apply the other three verses. This is application. So if you’re looking for the Supreme Person then you have to look for God on all these three levels. So «up to this» means «up to the Bhagavan level” but at the same time is that all circumstances and all space and time both directly and indirectly. Directly will mean it’s him as a person. Indirectly it will be through the things of the creation in everything and what you value but then directly is Him as a person like chanting the holy name – that’s direct. But let’s say having a job, you get your money, you take care of the family, you give some of that money to Krishna –that’s indirect because the job is there to maintain the family, but you’re also using it for Krishna. So it’s indirect. And then, here it says « all space, time, and circumstances», so that means it’s not anytime that it doesn’t apply. Sometimes those the modernness will bring up the element – well we’re just trying to be practical. What about time, place, and circumstances? Vedic stuff doesn’t apply but Krishna is pointing out. If it doesn’t apply to time, place, and circumstance, it’s not Vedic. It only becomes Vedic when it is actually applied in this way.
So one has to see that it includes all this. Manu mentions that when you’re dealing with the scriptures (because you say it has to be based on scriptures what you want doing) is that it must be based on the Veda. So that means it must be based on the philosophy. Because the Veda, it’s conclusion is Vedanta so that’s the philosophy. Then how did great personalities in the past apply this; what we see in Smriti. Like in Bhagavatam we see great personalities who are following the Vedic culture and lifestyle and philosophy. What did they do? How did they behave? So all the literatures give like this –the all smrities gives this, the discussion between one person and another – so they’re understanding how they apply it. So then what is the example is given there? How did they bring it to a practical stage? Then the third thing is that those great personalities, which are within our sphere, specifics. So for us spiritual masters, senior devotees, parampara, how are they dealing with it? What do they do with this first two? Then the fourth is, it has to apply yourself that you’re comfortable with it. So if it’s not based on the philosophy, it’s not based on the culture, it’s not based on the specific practice, and it doesn’t apply to yourself, if all those four aren’t there, it’s not complete as in Vedic understanding and practice.
So Krishna is pointing this out here “in all circumstances, all times, all space”. You can say” well maybe here it doesn’t but there” so it means in Kali Yuga it also applies that whatever moment you’re dealing with material energy it applies them. “All spaces”. It’s not that when we’re in the temple it applies it but when we’re out in the street it doesn’t apply. It still applies because that’s still all space. “All circumstances”. In that space, what’s going on, what’s happening there. You’re out on the street. But everything’s empty so then that’s the circumstance and that’s space. You come back a few hours later and it’s still full of people and cars. The circumstance has changed. The space is the same. So that means anywhere in one’s life this will apply.
So basically what we’re seeing here is the first verse is dealing with sambhanda but with the Sankarshana aspect. Everything is Krishna. That is the field. The whole material existence, that’s the field of activity, that’s Sankarshana. So everything about it – all the rules and regulations – whatever is there, any considerations that there is – that’s the first principle. That’s the first verse. The second verse is dealing with your values. That’s what your interest is. That’s Pradyumna. It means you have a value. That’s why you do things. So that’s gone from the process of you being inspired. It means you as an individual. The first thing is as a fact, He is everything. Then, specifically, you as an individual, what you’re interested in. That how Krishna is appearing. Or He’s already appearing and you happen to be interested. Because He attracts you. The third one that He is beyond. That’s Aniruddha. That’s prayojana. He is the goal. He is actually the goal. You’re trying to establish your relationship with Him. He is the person you’re trying to establish with, so that’s prayojana. And then the fourth verse, that’s abhideya. That is the process. So the process is that you apply all these other three verses in all times, places, and circumstances. This is the essence of Krishna consciousness. This is the universal religion. Anyone can take this and apply it into the life, whatever their circumstances are. Any philosophy will improve understanding this, any religion, any business dealing, any engagement of the senses, any understanding of knowledge, whatever it is you’re trying to do will improve with this because then you actually understand what’s going on. How God, you, and then the material energy is interacting.
Question: What is God’s motive in the process of creation?
God’s motive is to provide an environment of which we can take up devotional service. Because the living entity’s natural position is to be engaged in devotional service. So the material energy, the material manifestation is there for that purpose, that we can get an opportunity to understand our relationship with them and take that up. Because in the spiritual world, there is no creation. And there, everybody is already relating with God. They have, they’re acting within their relationship with God. The material world means those living entities who are not. So it’s an opportunity to do that so that’s why no matter what it is, that’s the purpose. So within that, the human society, you have dharma artha, kama and moksha. So you have your religious and social structures, you have your economic development, sense gratification, and liberation. All those things are there so that you can perform activities because it’s not everyone sits around and floats in space and chants home. It means you’re going to do something because in the spiritual world it’s a dynamic relationship. That will mean that the relationship has to be expressed through something. These are the natural forms of human interaction. That’s what’s given. You follow it nicely according to the scriptures. That’s pious. That’s good. That’s nice. But it’s not as good as following it to please God. Because you know it’s all God. What you’re doing is connected with Him. Then you’re going to get the transcendental benefit. So besides getting the material benefit that is there, you will get the spiritual benefit. You get both. Otherwise, then supposedly you get material benefit but because of the temporariness, it doesn’t satisfy the living entity. But if they’re done simultaneously then you’re getting the eternal benefit. Then because you’re getting both you can compare and the material doesn’t compare to the spiritual. What it also establishes though that He is everything and He’s still a person. So He’s entered into anything but He’s still as a person that He makes things work?
Question continues: Maharaja, you’ve just mentioned in India five these principles, they begin confirm….spiritual and.material business but must these two businesses like Yuga Dharma and the principle analyze then probable wanna do these business…
Isn’t that what you want?
Questioner: Yes. …Literally saying
I mean it literally. You want to steal something. So that means you have to know the field on which you are going to steal from. You have to know who you are and what your capabilities are. You have to know what is the field and exactly what are your options. What is the purpose of the window? What is the purpose of the set? What all the little tools you have? What is the purpose of the bag you’re going put the stuff in. If you don’t know that, you try to stick the Rembrandt painting in your shoe, it’s going to be a problem. It goes in the bag. So it’s still the same thing but the point is if you connect all that and you understand that’s all God and what are you looking for in this stealing? So because there are so many forms that you can obtain, a particular goal from. Then if you understand this connection to God, you’ll be purified and then you’ll be attracted to using purer forms that obtain the same thing. If you’re stealing because it’s exciting, you could also do something that’s exciting that doesn’t have to be bad activity.
So that’s as the process wherever you are, you start there. If you actually analyze you’ll see a lot of what one does unnecessary and by understanding unnecessary you can just drop. If you can’t drop it, you still analyze that it’s still going work on the same way. It’s not ..because it’s ugrakarma, it’s not God. That’s why Krishna makes a statement. Because it’s not God, no one will look into it. So therefore, there’s no opportunity to be purified there. So then the main emphasis would be purification will come from price chitta. The price chitta only deals with the external manifestation. The purification by this process deals actually with the mind, ego and the consciousness. That will create real purification. That’s why the emphasis from justice comes in the form of observable punishments because we actually think it’s something separate. Morality and the rules stand on their own. So they’re only important because they’re God’s rules. Ethics is there. That’s created by God. So ethics are important because God created them not on their own.
Question: What does the punishment means when you say “separate”?
The punishment you’re not seeing is that because of lack of God consciousness therefore this is going on. It’s just that you’re stealing and that’s bad so therefore you’ll be punished. Do you understand? But why is he stealing? What’s wrong with stealing? If you ask somebody, what’s wrong with stealing? What will they say? It’s bad.
Questioner: It’s a rule…
It’s against the law. So what’s wrong with that? Why do you have to follow laws? So this kind of questioning will make a lot of people uncomfortable. But the point is that means they’re doing all these simply out of sentiment. And if it’s only out of sentiment, it simply needs a mood change and then they don’t follow it anymore. Do you understand? So there won’t be any consistency in there. That’s why it’s said if somebody is not God conscious they actually don’t have any good qualities. There may be something that manifests for a moment but the next moment it’s not there anymore. The dog is also nice sometimes and then sometimes he bites your leg off. So it’s temporary. If you’re looking at it in a big scope of things – somebody was nice and gave charity. That once that’s good and that’s nice but is he doing that now? Is it actually that part of his nature, нis qualities or he did that because he may have sentimentally felt like that today but then tomorrow he’s not into that or was it just to get recognition? Was it better for his business? Was it good for his social status? Does that make sense? Or you’re a rich guy who’s very charitably disposed and does all kinds of wealth work. If you run for mayor, you have a good chance because people will think this guy will work for the public. It may be that he sincerely is trying to do that but it also may be purely political. Do you understand? So the difficulty comes in here if you don’t analyze you’re only left with actually the mind – the sentiment. So how does that punishment connect with the crime? How is it going to correct the crime? What’s the point? So God’s creation is logical. You could explain everything. If you can’t, there’s going to be a shortcoming there. So then how do you know that your laws are correct or following the laws that are correct? So you should be able to explain all that. But right here is that somebody does something wrong and there’s no connection to God so there’s no way to actually purify it.
Questioner: without the knowledge..
Yes, without the knowledge. So the point is, for example, the lady was an adulteress so then they take her down to the wall and they stone her to death. Okay. Great. But what did it actually do? Why? What’s the actual problem? Is the adultery the problem because what is the adultery? It means you’re having a relationship with somebody but the problem that simultaneously you’re having another relationship. So the lady is intimate with one man and intimate with another man. So is the intimacy the problem? Because if the one is on one it is than the other but mechanically it’s the same thing. She’s intimate with one man and intimate with another man. What’s the difference? It’s the same elements, the same showing of affection. So it’s not that that’s the problem. The problem is that if you’re going to have strong relationship then the relationship is based on the element of confidence or security, safety. So that means there must be that commitment. If that commitment is not there, then how deep can the relationship go? The idea of the conjugal relationship is there for the purpose of dealing with the greatest amount of depth and breadth of material desire because if one is not involved in the conjugal relationship there isn’t that much desire. It’s not that broad. The punk kid he’s got his bicycle. He’s got his running shoes. He’s got his ipod and what else.
But as soon as there’s a conjugal relationship then the whole thing broadens so whatever it is that’s actually distracting you from being God conscious. It’s happening there. So you can’t properly carry out the relationship if it’s not solid. Then you’ll have doubt in it. Then you won’t get involved and you won’t commit yourself so then the depth of the relationship will not be experienced. Do you understand? So that means the person has less chance to improve himself. That’s the problem with adultery. But that’s not the reason that people are standing down at that wall with the stones. It’s just bad. If you ask why, they have no way to say. That’s why then guruji has said: “Then whoever has not done anything wrong you throw that first stone”. And so everyone dropped their stones and walked off. Because it’s just a thing, because sometimes you do wrong things. So you feel better that I am correcting other people. I am working to correct the situation, but they’re not working to correct the wrong. They’re not there throwing stones at themselves. So you have a lot of people and I mean a lot of people. They will jump up and down about punishment because they’re basically doing the same thing and they feel by doing that they’ve corrected the situation. It’s still the same thing.
Questioner: Yes…..because the knowledge is not there…then sub-conscience…people don’t understand what they are doing actually…what they are doing is useless
Yes. This may be considered a diversion in the conversation but the point is in a leadership role you are dealing with people. You’re always going to be dealing with these kinds of considerations. People do things that they’re not supposed to do. How are you going deal with that? You’re going to say: “Better safe than sorry or.. setting a good example and then no one will do it”. Has anybody – I mean how many people stop being Christians because they took other Christians, put them in a burlap bag, stuck them in a vat of tar, hung them up in the road, and lit them on fire? And if that didn’t the job then where was that line burlap bags lighting up the way for? They were lighting up the way to the coliseum. And when we got to the coliseum, who’s in the coliseum? Gladiators and Christians! Or lions and Christians! Did it stop the movement? Snuffed them right out. Never heard of a Christianity force. One of those funny I say historical facts, history buffs and other such nerds they know something about. Isn’t it? No. So these kinds of things never work. They never have worked. They never will work because the only way to change somebody from doing something is through knowledge. That’s actually reformation, is a purification by the process of knowledge and this means knowledge means knowledge of a relationship with God. That’s the only thing that actually purifies.
Question: …How can people check if it is punishment?
You can punish but the point is that is it working? You do something because it works. You take potato and put it in the oven and then when you open the oven it’s cooked. But if you open the oven, it’s not cooked it’s turned into a tree or it has gotten rock hard! You’re not going to do it anymore, right? So my point is, is it working? That’s one thing. So just even from the practical point, is it working? If it is, it’s great. If it’s not working then it has to be looked at.
The other thing is what is wrong with those things that they’re doing wrong. As we mentioned, what’s wrong with divorce? Who’s to say “it’s bad” or they just say “you can’t divorced”, but why do they say that? If you don’t know that, then you won’t know how to deal.
The other thing is the authority who is banning them. What did they do to ensure that they – they created an environment which is education and there is support so there’s the best possibility that that doesn’t happen? In other words, the people got married, the temple had nothing to do with it. When people are living their life as grihasthas and having problems, the temple has nothing to do it. When they get divorced, the temple is all involved.
So if the temple is helping with training people what marriage means, what is its importance and what’s actually the duties and involvements and everything, what are your rights and obligations. And at the same time is that practicing it and they’re there to support somehow, would give some direction if they can’t quite see the forest for the trees. Then, if something happens and there’s divorce, and it’s obviously they’re not trying, then you could say these things. So we’re so liberal on other things. It’s that we don’t worry about the devotional clothes and so on. We catch up on a few things and that becomes Krishna consciousness.
So but the point is we see Krishna consciousness means you are conscious of Krishna but in this arrangement where is it? It is the rule. The Vedas mention it. But why are they mentioning it? What is it for? That’s the point. People get divorced. One is that if you know that there is no alternative. Like you get married, you shouldn’t get divorced so what would that mean? That would mean if it’s actually understood then you would only marry something you saw the best chance of living your whole life with. So it wouldn’t be based purely on sentiment. There would have to be some factual common principles that you could see you could live a life with this person because the common principle of the family life is going to companionship. That’s always there whether you’re in private or whether you’re in public, any situation companionship can be the common experience. But intimacy and romance, all these things – that’s limited when it can be or when it will be. So, is this someone you could see to be a companion with your whole life? Okay, the romance is there, the sex is great, like that but is that enough? You see no. Generally it’s just two years. Three years if you stretch it. And that’s it. The sex stops out at two but you hope for something maybe but after one year it’s not happening then – then the divorce. So are we being realistic here? No. Yes? No.
Question:… We should be sure before we get married, why did then they get married?
That’s there. What I’m talking about is this situation what people find themselves in. That’s what we’re talking about. So that means they would be sure about that and the second thing is anything’s going to have problems. So you’re gonna commit to getting over those problems or you’re just gonna look for the easy way out? So by having the rule “no divorce,” it ensures that people go into it with a little bit more than sentiment. They’re using their intelligence. They know what they’re getting into. But most don’t know. They’re just told a month later their girlfriend says I’m pregnant and then depending upon their mood they have an abortion or they get married. So it’s not well thought out, so that needs to be established. So if it’s really important then no divorces, which Vedas mention and Prabhupada mentions it so it’s a good thing, then why isn’t the whole process being looked at? All time, all place, all circles – why isn’t that being looked at? Because that’s what Krishna says. So otherwise, then the punishment establishes you as an authority means an authority has to be able to punish. That’s very important. But at the same time, the essential element of authority is shelter. It’s protection. That’s what comes up as we get into more detail. Authority is protection .So punishment has to be part of the process of protection. So the person who is being punished also has to be protected. So were they protected before? If you didn’t protect them, what is your authority over them now? So the only thing left is that well that sets a bad example for others, which is true. But at the same time, one can’t be confident in having complete authority because one actually didn’t perform the duties of authority. Only the punishment part but the rest of it wasn’t there.
So the father, he has the standards. He is proud of the family. He has done everything for them and everything like this. And then the kid one day decides to against the whole principles of the family and tradition. Then the father can say “you’re out of here” but he’s done all these other things. So there is a relationship and it is chosen not to follow or appreciate that. So in other words it’s not a problem. Yes. The authorities have to be able to punish but likewise just like the couple they should look at more what’s before the divorce. They should look at what’s before the punishment. So we only stick to the end it as he pointed out everybody only looks at gold. You can see a divorce. It’s paper. It’s a stamp. You could see it. That’s all we deal with. The punishment you can see, but that’s dealing with only the externals of Krishna consciousness and what we’re being given is so far beyond that. It takes things into a different level because then there’s support, you try your best and then if there’s a need. In other words, if someone’s trying, they didn’t know what marriages are. Like this and that. And if they have problems, it falls apart. That’s one thing. But if it’s a matter of saying not to do it and who cares then there’s attitude then that’s another thing, then you can consider because in there mood is very important and who you’re dealing with. So the thing with blanket rule, there’s no such thing as blanket rules. Bureaucracy creates blanket rules because it’s very easy. You sit in an office behind a desk with a bunch of papers. Your problem that comes in front of you is the piece of paper. You deal with it as a piece of paper. So it goes from inbox to outbox and it’s done. Then you put your stamp and sign on it. ….
But you didn’t deal with the people. You didn’t apply the rule to the individual. Previously, there wasn’t a problem with these things. That’s not good but the point was is the solution was enough absorbing Krishna consciousness so they make you absorb more in Krishna consciousness. But at that time, the society is considered very conservative but it would consider the individual. And now the present day is supposed to be so liberal and open minded and we’re interfacing with all these different scenarios in the modern world but you see the application of the rules and punishment is purely bureaucratic and purely nothing to do with the individual. So it’s completely reversed. And not only that they make it that is their fault. The temple is the victim. And the person who got the divorced, they’re the bad guys because the temple now we have to deal with all these stuff and confusion and all that. So this is what’s called technically a spin doctor. Like that. That is the technique of political correctness. Political correctness means you will learn how to spin doctor so that you are always the victim and you are never the one wrong.
Question: Sometimes people see their problems but consider not to get involved….Or from another side they think “ I have a problem and I am crying for help” .What should we have, the main idea for the community for people to help…
Yeah. It means out of these liberalness, you don’t get involved or out of not wanting any trouble. Generally, you don’t want to get involved because there’s trouble or you let everyone live their life. The point is that if someone needs help you give it. If they don’t ask for help, you don’t give it. The problem is that it will come as okay if we’re giving help then we kick down the door and we’re here to help. But it’s a matter of their. You take advantage of it and then you’re there to help. So you let it be known that it’s there. It’s like these help lines. You know it’s there. It’s advertised. Everybody knows and so if there’s a problem you call there. And then when you call … , if you’re having marital problems press 1.It’s like you’re trying to get 911 and it goes through all these things .
The point is it’s a relationship. It’s dynamic. This is the point of when we’re saying dealing with the moment. What is the moment? What is the mood? Nothing’s forced. But it’s dynamic and it works. This is the balance. This is the hard part. What we’re discussing is the philosophy and that’s easy. Technical, but it’s easy. The hard part is actually finding the balance, seeing how to balance it. How to make it work? How much you get involved or not? The young persons, they’re very enthusiastic. They have their own ideas. If it’s basically going the right direction you don’t get involved. But if they don’t know what to do, you’re looking – then you get involved. So the point is the relationship, whatever you’re dealing with you have to get 100%. So if they’re doing it, you don’t get – not involved. If they’re mostly doing it, you get a little involved. If they’re hardly doing it, then you get a lot involved. As they get involved and as you train them and educate them then you start to pull back and then they start to take prominence. But if they run into a new area they don’t know then it will go back the other and then you train them again. So it’s always dynamic.
Question:….
Being proactive here. Taking responsibility, right?Yeah.
They didn’t turn in … And really bad when they … Yes.
Question: …we are trying…but truly…what Krishna want to see happening situation and then plans according…
Yes. What Krishna wants in a situation where you’ve done nothing to help the community or establish what the standards of Krishna conscious family life but you ban them from the community? So by banning them from the community, how will they see Krishna more? How will they be involved more? No, so that’s not the point but the point may be is that you have to have some more so that people know. Because the point is it should be known, that okay – why did this marriage fail? They’re not trained. So then now, this person cannot just go out and start flirting with someone else because they’re not trained.
Question: Who should train them , the president or…?
No, it has to be provided by the community.
But the point is that community then there’s a hierarchy. And your temple is always going to be at the center of your community. Because the most ideal activities and the broadest is done at the temple. And then at home, you can do part of that but you can’t do the same as the temple can do. So that’s always considered there. But if the community can arrange that themselves nice. If not, the temple can be involved or any combination that you have to see what’s practical and what works. But the point is that it should be not what you’re looking for. Like Prabhupada mentions, the astrological charts are checked. But most people look at it “ well I’ll get to know the person. If I like them, then I’ll check the charts but no you should check the charts first. And if they match, great. If they don’t, don’t even bother. Because once you’re attached, you want it work but it won’t work because there’s not enough there to work with.
The question is that in a society people get married and then one party decides not to be so involved in Krishna consciousness. But the other party wants. So then one natural solution would be if you get divorced and you find a partner who is more inclined towards Krishna consciousness and so why would that be a problem? Then, there’s a lot more involved there. One is that what does that mean pursuance of Krishna consciousness? How are they applying that Krishna consciousness? Because you have a lot more involved here if you’re going to get into this. Is the marriage working properly? In any case, what is the marriage? What are you marrying? Two souls? What will you marry? The two subtle bodies. You say souls. How’re you marrying souls?
No, but what does that got to do with the soul? Why are you getting married? Because you happen to have a body that’s got a gross, looks like a man and you’re marrying one that looks like a woman. That’s why you’re getting married and not because you’re two souls because you and a dog are also two souls. Or you and some alfalfa sprouts. Now look at this – how long will the alfalfa sprout live so you can be confident that your marriage worked well as long as the other party was alive. And in this way, you can have a lot of wives. Hey –the alfalfa sprouts. Do you understand? So the souls are committing to the relationship that the marriage has nothing to do with the souls. The marriage is a situation in which these two souls who have common material needs can cooperate together to engage those common needs in Krishna’s service. But the actually marriage is marrying the gross and subtle body. So the point being made here is that is those are material considerations. Those material considerations are going to be engaged in Krishna service. But the point is whether both parties are Krishna conscious or not. Materially, they should still get along fine. Do you understand? – if they’re properly matched and you know how to operate of marriage. Because your interests are still the same. Your mundane interests are still the same because what you’re matching in a marriage is same kind of mind, intelligence, and ego.
You like the same recreation. You like the same kind of things, your state of how you live in your house, сlean and orderly and tidy or it’s kind оf there or it’s a complete mess. Thesee are things that are considered. That’s what the chart checks. It doesn’t check if you’re spiritually compatible. There’s nothing in there for that. So that means technically you should still be able to work fine together. And then, what does the Krishna consciousness mean? You want to practice it but they don’t so as long as there’s a cooperation- okay you practice it and they don’t what’s the problem? As long as they’re willing to let you practice and as long as you’re willing to let them not practice, what’s the problem?
But generally what happens is one part is in the Krishna consciousness. So somebody is tired that day and they were up late or they’re sick but they forced them to do – all those kinds of things after a while there’s one who’ll just say I can’t do this anymore. So it wasn’t actually a proper application of the marriage because the point is that you have to deal what’s going on now. What’s the mood now? What’re you dealing with? If you’re dealing with the men, you put the pressure. If you’re dealing with the women, you don’t put the pressure. If you’re dealing with kids, you don’t put the pressure. You set the standard. You educate them and let them know, and they’ll take it in their own time. So if you’re not patient, it’s not going to work. You’re patient and it’ll work. If they like you, why won’t they do what you do? You go out and a man is on the street and you stop him on the street and you ask him what’s your religion. And whatever he says there’s a good chance … parents it’ll be the same but if you check, the guy probably never goes and practices anything with his religion. He never goes to church. He never does anything. He doesn’t say any prayers. No grace. Nothing. Because his parents are that, he will identify it as his parents and he will identify it as his past. So that’s the point. If they like you, they like what you do.
If they don’t like you, they don’t like what you do. So that means one is not actually understanding who you’re dealing with. You’re not dealing with the people. You’re dealing with a wife but the wife is a person. The child is a person. You have to be able to see that and then deal. So, are you getting the result? If you applied it and the result didn’t happen, whose fault is it? I’m fixing the engine on the car and I turn the wrench and it’s not going in properly so I turn it really hard and the top of the bolt shears off. Whose fault is it? Is it going to be the bolts, right?
No. If it doesn’t work you put it back and then you put it and make sure it’s in. Then when you put it in, it’ll go properly. So the point is that just because you did it and it doesn’t work, it didn’t mean that it’s the other person’s fault. That’s why we’re trying to learn this stuff. If it didn’t work, you can’t control what the other person can do but you can control what you do. So therefore you can adjust what you do to make it work. If they’re not inclined, you first have to make them inclined. So, it’s understood.
If you’re doing your best of what you know then you deal with it but then in this also if you take a look at it from a different angle, is there a difference between two couples who both are Krishna conscious and they can’t live together and so they divorce and one situation where one is Krishna conscious and one is not and they’re divorced. Is there is there any difference? Would you make a consideration? Yes or no? These are exactly the same. I have two As and I have an A and a B. Are they the same combination of letters? No. So there’s a difference. Are they trying or as soon as something or a problem comes up and they just throw in the towel. These are three different scenarios. So if one can’t analyze that and deal with them accordingly, then how do you – why is it just divorce and blank it. You can’t be one. So that’s the point. It is if you want to be a leader you have to be able to make and to distinguish. You have to deal with each person according to their nature. There’s a bunch of people that are very similar, the you can deal similarly. But if there’s differences, you have to deal with difference. Chanaki says: Someone who deals with all his servants the same will fail. This is the authority. So that’s the problem with these blanket rules because they can’t explain why, what’s the function behind, or what went wrong – nothing. They wouldn’t know how to correct it or how to create a proper marriage. Nothing. It’s just it’s a rule. That’s a bureaucrat. A leader is not a bureaucrat. A leader may be able to do bureaucratic work in order to be able to maintain and engage bureaucrats but a leader is not a bureaucrat. They are not the same thing. Of course maybe you could be a leader of bureaucrats and you inspire everyone else in your paperwork, yes. Maybe you could do that.
Question: Maharaj, you mentioned the three essential applications-the focus, the process and the result. You’ve tasted the result and it’s great and established the focus. Then one day you’ve come across 3 or 4 or even more different types of process. What’s a good way of illuminating the unnessacery process…?
It means here also when we say focus, focus includes the understanding of the goal. Because unless that Sankarshana, Pradyumna, and Aniruddha are not understood then there won’t be focus. Once the focus is there then you can endeavor. And here on this the daiva, the result means is that you’re dependent upon the Lord. You’re not attached with the result. You are doing your best to perform the activity properly and then you will let the results come as they naturally follow. Because that’s what’s going to happen anyway. If you let it happen, you won’t get frustrated… If you demand it’ll happen, you will get upset. That’s what this is dealing with. But now it means your endeavor is based on your plan which is part of focus. Endeavor is the application of the plan, which means you’re going to have to deal in the present and make adjustments with it but the plan itself is part of focus. So that means according to the time, place, and circumstance, you see what will most efficiently get done what you want. And if they’re both equal then you just choose which one you prefer according to your nature.
Question: You were speaking about bureaucracy before. What about the society when the authorities make more bureaucratic with individuals……and problems in the communities as such as when they start to treat as bureaucratic leaders? What is the danger with a dealing bureaucratically?
Danger will be is that the actual specific of why that individual may be a problem for the community is not actually addressed because doing something wrong then there’s going to be many different aspects of making it wrong. So one has to consider all that. Just like let’s say you have an enemy on the battlefield and as long as they’re fighting then you can fight them and kill them, but now if they drop their weapons and surrender, you’re forbidden from killing them, even though they’re still the enemy. So the attitude changed from that of someone who sees themselves as equal to someone who sees themselves as dependent. So attitude always has to be included. Also, what is their position? What is their nature? How do they maintain themselves? What is their devotional understanding? If someone who has a more – let’s say intellectual nature or a more devotional understanding then when it’s explained to them what’s wrong then generally they can self-correct. But someone who’s not, who generally works just on emotions and that there you might have to create a change in environment or something in the environment that would keep them from doing what’s wrong because of their emotions they cannot do that.
Question: What if the environment force them leave or..
Okay, let us say that in the environment that’s there that individual, it isn’t good for them to be around. They talk too much. They think that they’re not wrong. They talk to other people. They create a whole political environment. So then, better they do find someone in that situation because if everybody else is comfortable with how it’s going then they’re simply making a political disturbance. Better they do find something else. But then they go wherever you go. You let them go. You don’t bother them once they leave. They’re gone so that’s it. It means – if they come back in the future then you’ll check and see. Are they still like they were before? If they are, then you worry. If they’re not and they’ve adjusted, then that’s another thing. But you don’t make it where they can’t find any place to go. They can’t do anything. It’s like you fire someone from your company, you don’t call up all the other companies and say they’re bad.
That’s just nasty. You have a problem. What you care if your competition has a problem. Because it may be that after getting fired from your place, he’ll have learned something but the environment in your establishment they still won’t function nicely because some time needs to be there. So they’ll go to another place. They’ll be more careful. They’ll be a better worker. They’ll do things more properly. So you always have to see is that the idea is that somebody’s body, mind, and intelligence should be engaged in Krishna’s service. So you try to see that that goes on. If they’re unwilling to take part in that process, they may have to be removed from the environment if they’re going to disturb others. If they’re not going to disturb others, what does that matter?
So you have to look at it, what actually is the situation. It doesn’t mean that it’s easy but the point is that one has to consider all the different angles before one comes up with a solution. Because if one just comes up with something, it may work for right now today but there’s every chance that tomorrow it won’t work. Because the point is that people feel «I just did something wrong» and then there’s going to be trouble then people won’t take any risks. So that means nothing will happen because if something goes wrong then he’ll be blamed. So one is willing to take a risk and take that responsibility of that risk if others are supportive and as long as you’ve done your best at it, then that’s one thing. And if you’re not then they show you how to do it better and you take it then it works. But if they show you you’re not willing to take it then when things go wrong it is your fault because you took full responsibility by doing it your way rather than listening to others.
So one has to consider all these different aspects. What is the field, what is the mood, what is the thing, what is the nature of the person involved, what is their emotional strength. Because the point is that the goal should be whatever happens that brings them closer to Krishna. If they’re not interested, then that’s another thing but if they’re interested, how will it bring them closer to Krishna. And if they have to do all that on their own and work it out themselves then how does one claim to be an authority? You didn’t help them before. You’re not helping them after. How is it suddenly you come into the mix and now you’re the big boss.
So we’re taking this from the point of that everyone here is in some capacity has some concept of being a leader. This kind of conversation is not to be taken the other way – how to get leadership. This is how to establish proper leadership. Because one must follow authorities as mentioned, without being a good disciple, you can’t be a proper leader. So that means everybody has to be a good disciple. Everyone has to be a good follower. So there’s no room for people not being followers. And everyone wants to be a leader. No, it’s those who are followers they can be leaders. That’s the problem. Otherwise, you see like Robs Pier, he got the people to follow him but then because he wasn’t actually a good follower himself then they cut off his head. So that’s the problem with these things is that they’re not able to do it. Let’s say somebody like Napoleon, he was willing to do anything that he asked his men to do. Their gun is stuck in the – their cannon is stuck in the mud, he won’t just stand there and watch. He’ll get down and do it and get it out of the mud with them so therefore he would do it. Or Alexander, his men don’t have water, he doesn’t drink water. It’s like this. So therefore they inspired the leaders. That’s what worked in their leadership. There’s something else that didn’t work that’s why things fell apart.
Is it a position or is it responsibility? Yeah, you have to say it’s both but the point is that you can lead without having a position but the point is that leadership is always going to be a responsibility. If you take that position of leadership, then you’ll have to take the responsibility that goes with it. You may have a position or not. Because the point is that what’s actually dynamic is the responsibility and not the position. You have a mother-child relationship, okay? So is there responsibility from the part of the mother? Is there responsibility? Yes. Is there authority? Is there position? But which one of those two is prominent in a mother’s relationship with the child? Responsibility and not authority. That only comes up when the child starts talking in ways they shouldn’t. Like «listen, I’m your mother.» That’s kind of thing.
So it’s responsibility that is the motive of leadership and not position. But for a bureaucrat it’s only position. Because what is a bureaucrat’s responsibility other than move the papers from this side of the table to that side. That’s it. But as far as the social impact on what papers he moved, he has no responsibility.
Question: Maharaja, the blanket rules you’ve mentioned earlier is actually a part of mainstream education today. The things.. like confidence and competence are makes you to success…but those things applied in reality it’s good on papers and what we see in reality is very different… Why. .in situation.. .there is no answer those…
So in the modern environment much of the time we see is established institutions whatever that may be will come up with these very nice little sayings. But the problem comes is in application. But it’s not that necessarily what they’re saying is wrong. What you say aptitude, attitude, and what was the other?-Confidence and competence. Confidence means you know the field. You’re confident. You can see that function in that field. So that’s what we’re talking about- that’s Pradyumna. What was the other one again? Competence. Okay, that means you have to have the skill. It must have been practiced so that means you had already been working with that field over and over again but you have knowledge and you apply it in a field, then you get competence. Because if you only have knowledge and you don’t apply it you have good knowledge but you don’t have competence. If you only do the activity, you may be able to repeat but it’s not you’re actually that competent. Competent means you can deal with it if it doesn’t exactly go how it should. You can make those adjustments. So that comes by practice based on knowledge. So that’s the Vedic principle. It’s action means knowledge.
In here also is another thing you can look just for looking at is in sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana. Those are going to be coming from – those are principles in the spiritual world that manifests as the sandhini, samvit, and hladini potencies. In that order. So the samvit means the knowledge potency – the Sat-Chit-Ananda. So sambhanda relationships that’s the position of eternality. That’s why the materialist thinks that life is going to be eternal because that’s how they saw things with the situations here in the temple rather. So Sat-Chit, Chit means knowledge so that means knowledge is applied because that’s in the position of abhidheya so it’s not just knowledge or application. It’s only knowledge in sambandha, right? But application is always with all the other elements so that means knowledge has to be there. So that would be competence. If you had that competence, you’ll have the confidence because then you identify with it, you’ll be able to do it, and you’re comfortable with that feeling. What are the others?
Only those two. So they’re correct. But the problem is that they don’t know how to train you in that. It sounds great. That’s the problem. You sit around at that table and come up with these things they sound fabulous. Just like, if any political correctness, it sounds fabulous like that but they wrote a book on that I think Orwell …
Yeah, he wrote a book on that, and it’s called «1984». So it is just on the power of just spinning what you speak to make it favorable for you. That’s all. So it sounds great, yes. But how are they instilling confidence? Because if they don’t do with knowledge then how is it going to be there? They’re saying this is how you’ll be a success? This is what we’re looking for in a student but those are already basically results of a process. So if they haven’t created the process by which they can get that, how can they claim that this is what we’re looking for in a student.? Yes, we’re looking for students who have this potential that go through our program and going through this program they should get these things and for. So many students that’s the way it is so if you’re not getting it then either there is something wrong with our teaching method or you’re not suitable for the teaching method or this skill is not your skill.
