“Progressing in Spiritual Life” seminar given by HH. Bhaktividya Purna Swami at ISKCON Brisbane in 2011
Yesterday we were discussing the concept that the material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. That reflection is based on our material desire which we hear all the time, it’s fine. But the important element is in applying that knowledge, and this is where things become confusing. We talk about the spiritual world and Krishna and the cowherd boys and the gopis and everything’s fine. We talk about how the material world is a place of misery and this and that nonsense and it’s fine. But when we talk about the material world actually functioning on the same principles as the spiritual world, but that you don’t get the spiritual results unless you think of Krishna (only get the material results)if you follow the principles as laid down in the spiritual world then we have a serious problem. Because in our mind, there’s spiritual and there’s material and it’s a matter of an activity. This doesn’t mean that whatever activity we’re doing, as long as we think of Krishna it’s spiritual and if we don’t think of Krishna it’s material; there’s a big difference, and this one point makes the whole difference between whether your life progresses or not.
The idea of progressing in Krishna Consciousness means you’re going to progress by the quality of your sadhana , your chanting, and your association with devotee – that’s going to be your major principle. But aside from that, another element is what it is that we’re doing because of our conditioned nature. For instance, it’s due to our conditioned nature that we wear the particular clothes that we do, live where we do, eat what we do, spend our money how we spend our money, or even use the toilet how we think you should use the toilet. It goes all the way down to that – picking your nose, whether you comb your hair or not, whether you have hair or not. It has nothing to do with our spiritual understanding; it’s just simply, barebones, our material need. And why is it called material? Because you don’t see the Krishna connection to it – that’s all. It’s that simple. You go outside and get in your car; you start your car and drive your car. The principle of driving the car is the same for everyone. There’s a vehicle and you have to get it going in the direction you want whether it’s a horse, whether there’s an engine on the front, or whether there’s an electric motor, it doesn’t matter; the principle of driving is the same. Where did that principle come from? Did Ford make it up? No, they were driving chariots for thousands of years before he was ever born. The vehicles went down a road and you went down this side and they went down the other side and as long as you didn’t run into them, things were good. If you bumped into them, then there was a problem. Is there any difference? No. So the point is something is material because you don’t see Krishna, and then it becomes spiritual because you do. But we’re under the false conception that because it’s something I need to do then it’s okay. And then I have my sadhana. So you live in two worlds at once, which must be a great distress for basically most all of you in this room. You have to tear yourself between what you think is real life and your spiritual application. But that’s only because you’re in the illusion that whatever you’re doing is real because you feel you need to do it, not because it’s connected to Krishna. And this is an illusion because that’s not true – it’s that simple. So if you want to progress, it means that whatever you’re doing now – it doesn’t matter what it is – you have to see Krishna in it. That’s the only definition of Maya: that which you think that functions without Krishna. “My car runs because I put petrol in it and I started the engine and I paid my road tax, that’s why it works”. No, it works because of Krishna’s potency. If you can see that then you’re in the Krishna Consciousness. If you don’t see that, you’re in Maya. It’s that simple, that’s all. So that’s all we’re talking about.
When we develop these philosophies like, “I’m just being practical”, “I’m just being down to Earth”, “I’m just being real”, or “I’m not a hypocrite” – all these things are just excuses to be in Maya. What you’re really saying is, “I like being in supreme control and enjoy it and I don’t want anyone to mess with it so I have all these cute little lines that I pull out of a hat that are so old and hackneyed and so foolish and stupid”. Because what does practical mean anyway, practical means getting something done. Being Krishna Conscious is something practical, so seeing Krishna involved in what you’re doing is extremely practical. Not seeing, that’s for kids. Kids just like to play, they have their roles, they just understand. For years people have wondered if kids were small adults or adults were just small kids. Basically it depends on consciousness, but in most cases adults are small kids. And occasionally you find a kid who’s a small adult. Because being an adult means that one is capable of analyzing a situation in reality. If you only analyze enough for eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, you’re acting like an animal, and animals aren’t compared with adult mentalities. You may have adult responsibilities, you may have an adult capacity of contemplation and thinking, but if you don’t use them as an adult…
Let’s say I have a Ferrari car but I don’t know how to drive. I learn a little something so that I can get to the shopping market with my Ferrari, but just because I have a Ferrari does that make me a racecar driver? Does that mean that I can tell people that I’m related to Schumacher? No, just because you have a body that happens to be 30 or 40 years old doesn’t mean you’re any different from an 8-year old kid who just likes to play all day and waste his time. He’s got to fight the demons and monsters and you’ve got to pay your taxes and go to work. What’s the difference? Because if you don’t see a connection to Krishna, what’s the meaning of maturity? You’ll say, “no I’m mature this and that”. But in a few years and you’ll be dead and then what? Then you’ll be this dinky little thing about this big again, but you’ll grow up like this, and then you’ll be born again, and when you’ve been doing that for a long time then you can say “I’m a big adult”.
I think it was one time Hridayananda Maharaj was saying that, “You see this cute little innocent kid, I see somebody who was a 90-year old man just a few years ago”. So, in other words, the concept is that the secret to progressing is the ability to be able to analyze what you’re doing from a neutral point of view and recognize the presence of Krishna in everything in your life. That’s what we’re trying to do. But we have this nice idea of black and white and we have no ability to distinguish grey. You know, something’s either great or we’re over it. It’s either fabulous or blah. He’s either a great star or who’s ever heard of him? This is the way the modern culture works. So, it’s crucial to develop the ability to see if in different aspects of your life you’re seeing the connection to Krishna or not. And if so, how much are you seeing, and how much of what you see is generated by your material need and how much does it improve when you see it in relationship to Krishna. When we’re talking about this, we’re not talking about your sadhana, that’s not what this discussion is about. You want to know about sadhana, then go online look up lectures by Sacinandana Maharaj and you’ll get some really good stuff, like how to chant properly and how to absorb yourself properly, these are really direct and everyone understands the application of them. But we’re in the material world because we don’t understand the rest of it. We’re progressing as a result of those direct devotional activities but the fact that everything else in our life has nothing to do with Krishna holds us back from progressing any further.
We’re vegetarian right? Okay, you know, like that. There are certain things that we don’t do, but there’s a lot of Karmis that are vegetarians, and for a very ideal reason. So it’s not something special. The birds out here that make all the funny sounds, they’re vegetarian. And the bugs that eat all the plants out there that all the gardeners hate are vegetarian. So being vegetarian is nice, but why is it good? That’s what we were discussing the other day. It’s very popular now to eat organic food and buy organic, but what’s so great about organic, what’s the point? If you go into a village in India or Cambodia, all they eat is organic because that’s all that they have available. But here we eat organic because it’s popular, it’s a social thing, it’s a status, it’s considered something special an ideology. So whose ideology is it? Where does that come from? Why do we consider that special? Does it have anything to do with Krishna? No. It’s just something nice for the material world. Like a chunk of gold, it’s nice, but it’s still mundane unless it’s connected to Krishna. What is it about eating organic that we would consider important? But let’s go back to the principles before we get into that because this is more of a practical application.
Now the basis of how we apply this principle is Chatur Shloki is Srimad Bhagavatam 9 canto verses 33 to 36. Here Krishna makes four points; the first is that he is everything. Now, this is not such a difficult point for those from indigenous cultures, but if one is from any kind of Judeo-Christian background or even an Islamic background, they will have come from a culture where one is taught to appreciate that there is a single God, but they’ll have made it conditional and claim that everything isn’t actually God. As a side note, the monotheistic religions aren’t really monotheistic. We all know this term monotheistic, one god. God is good just like organic is good. So if God is good, then that means that anything bad is not God, which implies that bad is carrying on in an organized way, and that someone must be in control of bad. And the fact that bad is somehow happening in spite of all the good indicates that bad is independent of good, so actually all those who claim to be monotheistic, in fact worship two Gods: the Lord and the Devil. Well actually they accept two gods; they worship one and they try to not worship the other one. But because the Devil is in control of the world and everything going on here is controlled by him, people have to use faith to cut through that. But what I find amazing is that people can cut through it, but God can’t. He just has to sit back without the ability to control and let this guy Michael is make a bunch of trouble, but what can he do about it? Even though he’s omnipresent, omnipotent, the supreme this and that. You can understand what’s going wrong here in this philosophy. But when Krishna says that he is everything, it means he is everything. That the reason your toilet paper roll works is because God’s potency in it. It’s down to that level but we don’t like to think about those things – but we like our roll of toilet paper. It’s God’s potency that makes anything work. This gizmo here works because of God’s potency in it. That’s all, if the potency isn’t there won’t work. What potency is in this? What can I do with it? It will hold down papers nicely, it makes noise, it can talk to people, but I can’t hammer a nail into a wall or a screw or use it like petrol and stick it in the tank of a car and expect it to work. So it doesn’t have those potencies, but it has other potencies. God is in everything. That’s the first point, just to make it very clear, there’s nothing that’s not him, nothing that ever was that was not him, nothing that ever will be that will not be him. And even when you remove the material creation, he’ll still be there. That’s the first point. Just clear any doubts you might have that there’s a duality, that there’s God and then there’s something else.
The second point he makes is to determine what is of value to you and that’s where you can see God. That means you don’t have to worry about finding God in anything other than what you value because that’s your range of consciousness anyway. If money is important to you, then you notice money. For someone else money may not be as important, and they won’t have to look for God there. In other words, you only have to look where you have your values. What’s important to you, what drives you to do what you do? That value itself is God. You like your car because it goes fast, but that fastness is God not the car. This is what I meant earlier when we talked about the car. We think the car is what gives us the experience of fast, but it’s really Krishna’s potency of fast that is coming through the car to us. That’s the point. Consider the blenders over there, why do they work? Do they just work on their own? No, they work because of electricity. So the electricity is being applied in a particular way so that it manifests as a blender. We can also take the electricity and run the refrigerator, or run your lawnmower. So it’s electricity that’s actually making it work, because without the electricity none of those things work. Without Krishna’s potency in it, materials don’t work. We think the dead matter is doing the job that makes us so happy, but that is Maya. What I’m trying to point out is – whatever you value, look for Krishna there. All you have to do is figure out your values, we don’t have unlimited values, there’s only so many, and that’s where you can find Krishna. That means throughout your day, where you’re applying those values you can find him. It’s very simple but very engaging.
The next point he makes is that even though he’s everything and his potency is what makes everything work, he is also a person beyond that. Krishna himself is a person who has his own likes, his own dislikes, preferences for what he wants to do, how he wants to interact with his devotees, and how he passes his time. He may be God and it’s his potency that’s everything, but that’s not what’s really important to him. He’s just pointing out that you can find him on the Braman platform wherein he is everything. On the Paramatma platform he’s present in how you interact, what you interact with, and what’s of importance to you. But, ultimately we’re trying to get to the Bhagavan platform and see Krishna him as a person. And then, once we understand him as a person, that’s where we really progress. So you start by considering all those instances where you think the dead matter is creating an experience of value to you, where you believe you’re being realistic or practical and learn to see Krishna in them. Then, when you can see Krishna in them, instead of what you are attached to taking you away from Krishna, it begins to take you towards Krishna, because instead of being bound by it, you’re liberated by it. This is something very dynamic. The things you do every day, once you can see Krishna’s potencies in it and Krishna’s workings in it, you become liberated by that. When you can change your kid’s diapers and see Krishna in it, you’re liberated by that process. If you don’t see Krishna, then you’re just bound by your attachments. It’s that simple. See Krishna and it’s spiritual, don’t see Krishna and it’s Maya.
When I look at someone’s face I see a person, but when I look in the mirror I see his reflection. If you think the reflection is the person then you’re in illusion. The mirror is just showing you some light particles reflecting through the glass, but you’re not actually seeing the person. But we think, “No that’s the person”, and we’re very adamant about it. When someone asks, “why do you do this?” and you respond, “Oh I have to be practical about it”, or “we’ve got to make money we’re not like you guys”, that’s all just Maya talking. You have to make money for what? God didn’t have money. When Krishna was in Dwaraka, there was no money. Right? That’s what he’s known for, being a real poor guy – no money. So that means money is Lakshmi not Krishna. Even allowing that you have to get money, whose money is it? Who created the process to get money? Here we have cows, but we have to be practical, we have to feed them, then after feeding them we have to milk them, then after milking them we have to take the milk to the market. We’re really down-to-earth practical here. What does Krishna do all day? In the morning he milks the cows, then he takes them out and they eat all day, and then they come back in the evening and he milks the cows. He never bothers arranging that all this stuff goes to the market. How do you think he has a marble palace? You know, he sold a lot of yogurt and gee. So this process of economics for Krishna is a nice pastime because Lakshmi is his so this whole process of trying to gain economics is fun. He’s God, he’s the most powerful, so why come here and fight with Hiranyakashipu. It’s fun, that’s why it’s called pastime. For us it’s called rat race. But for God it’s called pastime because he doesn’t have to do it and he’s still doing it. We have to do it, or at least we think we do right? So if you can see it in connection with Krishna, then you’re connected with what he’s doing. We need to move past believing “it’s my attachment that makes me interested” and come to the point of contemplating “what does Krishna feel about this?” Or “what would he personally like about it?” And that’s how things progress. I have something really mundane things that I like to do, but that mundane-ness in it is actually Krishna. And if you can see that, and you start to see Krishna in it, then one starts to be purified – but only when you see Krishna, not when you talk about it, but when you’re actually contemplating. If you gave flowers to your wife three years ago, do you get any benefit from that today? Anything? We could talk about it all day – would you get any benefit? No. It’s the flowers you gave today you get benefit from. So that means, when you talk about “yeah, yeah we see a connection to Krishna”, that doesn’t mean anything unless you’re actually doing it. You don’t do it, you don’t get the benefit. If you do something you get the benefit, if you just talk about it, you don’t get any benefit. Talk is cheap. You have to do something.
The final point Krishna makes is that in all times, all places, all circumstances and in anywhere and in anything you should be looking for Krishna on these three levels. He’s not saying only when you’re in the temple, but when you’re in the car, when you’re in the mall, when you’re in the bathroom, wherever you are, you can find Krishna there. That’s what his point is. Why doesn’t Sukadeva Goswami bump into the tree? Why didn’t he fall when he was running along the path into that water where the girls were? Because he’s saying everything is Braman, but you can tell the difference between tree Braman and road Braman and lake Braman. Braman is the qualities of the Lord, and Krishna has unlimited qualities. You can tell the difference between them by the potencies that are manifested. His potency makes the tree what it is and the road what it is. A road means there’s no trees on it. If there’s a tree on the road, it’s not a road, so that place where there are no trees is a road – he can tell that and that’s why he doesn’t bump into the trees. But he’s only seeing Braman. And that’s just the first level Krishna’s talking about. The second level is the interaction between the various aspects of Krishna’s potencies which is the part we want to control. That’s where our values and desires lie. But the third aspect concerns why that potency is there and what does Krishna do with that potency? What does he do with trees and roads? That’s the highest. So that’s what Prabhupada directly taught us, because if you start there with that one, it’s so powerful that the other ones will follow. Your chanting will drag you along, even though you may be incredibly distracted. Just by chanting, one is still advancing and all that. But he also writes in his books all these other details for how you can quicken the progression during the other 22 hours of the day. Remember you’re chanting 2 hours a day. If you throw in a little morning program you get three maybe four hours, but what do you do in the other 20 hours? That’s where our progressing is slowing down.
Let’s say someone is living in the temple. Basically all they’re going to be doing is direct activity. The morning program, they’re going to be doing something for the temple, some preaching, some other aspects, taking Prasadam and the like, so there’s very little that they have to consider outside of devotional activities. They may do some other things, but it’s not prominent in their mind. However, if you’re not living in the temple then you may do some of these direct activities, but then you’re also doing a lot of activities that are not direct. If you can see them in connection with Krishna then they’re Krishna Conscious, and if you don’t see a connection with Krishna then it’s illusion. That’s the nice thing about the direct action; the holy name is Krishna, and even if the person doesn’t understand that they can still receive spiritual benefit. You go down the street doing Kirtan all the people here they don’t go “wow, the Lord’s holy name is so great!” No, they just say “what are those weird guys doing?” But it is Krishna whether you know it or not – that’s the benefit of direct action. Whether it’s advanced or not advanced you’re still dealing directly with Krishna. But indirect activities mean that if you can see the connection with Krishna, you can get spiritual benefit, but if you don’t see the connection with Krishna, it’s Maya. It’s just the mundane. Does that make sense?
Then we have to evaluate our activities and see what is working here. We can see that, okay, this particular value of mine is connected to Krishna, so that means that I have to be able to identify what are the elements here, how does it work, and what benefits I am gaining. Let’s take money as an arbitrary example. So where is money going to work? Will money be gained in just any field? We sit down and watch a movie, get absorbed in the emotion, and when we finish there’s a pile of money sitting there? Can you go out and sit in the back yard, smell the flowers, watch the bees and the birds, and hear the kookaburra’s and then look down and there’s a big piles of money? No, you have to go to the field where economics is being practiced. In other words, economics is the principle and it has its own field of activity and you have to be aware of that. Prabhupada said money is flying in the air; you just have to know how to reach up and grab it. Because Lakshmi is there, if there’s Krishna, there’s Lakshmi. Wherever there’s Krishna, there’s his internal potency. When you see that and you can see that in connection with the economics you will find the money. If you can see the potency as Krishna and Lakshmi as his potency, and therefore deal with it in that way, then that will be Krishna Conscious. But the mechanics are the same, as we said. In the mirror you nose is still the same. Maybe in the mirror it looks bigger, but it’s still the same nose. Material energy, the process of economics, it’s all still the same. You take grass which shouldn’t cost anything and you feed a cow, the cow produces milk which has a value, you sell that milk and you get money. You understand? It’s the same principle, but the point is that field itself is Krishna. The elements of what makes economics work is Krishna.
Now let’s go a little deeper to just make this concept a little bit more either clear (or confusing, whatever works). In addition to everything else we mentioned Krishna is also always interacting with his own potencies. So you’re dealing with the element of Krishna and his creations, the masculine/ feminine principle. Whatever you’re seeing is the masculine element – let’s go back to the car example and how we appreciated the power of the car. Now the masculine element is that power itself, that principle of power, and the feminine aspect, which means what Lakshmi manifests, is how power will be manifest. So what part of the car is doing that? Is it the particular engine that you have, whether you have good tires, or is the sound that it makes – do you think it’s powerful because it’s just making a lot of noise? Where you push on the gas, how the car turns – all these different things are manifestations of Lakshmi that are serving that particular potency or power. But she has unlimited manifestations so a huge mountain can be another example of the manifestation of the masculine principle of power. And then you also have the application of those elements that actually manifest the power. If your car is sitting there in the driveway, is the power being manifested? No, only if you turn on the motor and push on the gas will it do something. What do you call it? We’ll say push on the gas, do you say push on the pedal? Accelerator, we’re getting fancy here…technical. So until you press on the accelerator and the car is in gear – well even if it’s not in gear you’ll get some appreciation of power but you get more if it’s in gear right? The point is that you have to do something like that in order to appreciate the power that manifests. That’s Lakshmi. But what does this mean? It means that Krishna in the form of power and Lakshmi in the form of this car are interacting with each other.
What is your place in all this? What part are you playing in this? We are the servant by driving the car in such a way that it manifests the power. But we think, “no I’m the controller of this car, I’m the enjoyer of this car” – no you’re not, Krishna and Lakshmi are interacting and enjoying the power interaction, you can simply be the instrument. Whatever you’re doing even if you think you’re just doing something straight up-front Maya, you’re still a servant. You’re never the controller and enjoyer, that’s just the way it is and it’s time to get used to because it’s not going to change just because you think it should. It’s like the little kid who thinks he’s a knight in armor and thinks “I can name all the different dragons” and all that. But when you look out the window, you think “what’s he doing with that stick”? That’s what’s going on. And in the kids mind it’s real, and you can get a bunch of kids together they all see the same thing. So get a bunch of adults together who are all talking the same nonsense, it’s just a little bit more sophisticated, but it’s the same. And anybody who’s above that looks at it and goes “wow, what idiots these guys are. Hey check it out they’re all getting tattoos. He’s getting that now, what’s he going to do in 20 years when his wife sees that?” The problem is that we have this idea “I will be the controller and enjoyer” and that totally gets in the way of our spiritual advancement. Now you could be engaged in an activity and because you think you’re the controller and enjoyer, you enjoy your particular environment and you use that environment as a way to interact with Krishna, but it only becomes devotional when you can see that you’re not the controller and enjoyer. Those areas that we do like to control and enjoy can still be used as long as we see that we’re not the controller and enjoyer. It’s something that we have to get accustomed to. It’s similar to how energy works. If you try to enjoy energy, it doesn’t appreciate that. If you don’t try to enjoy it then it works, right? You had a bad day, or something’s wrong and you’re sick. You come home and you expect that everybody will bend over backward for you because you’re the sick one. Does it work? No, it’s not going to work. But, when you come home and you try to interact nicely but you can’t because of this, then they notice. You have to get used to the fact that when you want it you won’t get it, and when you don’t want it it’s available to you, that’s just the way it is. That’s how energy works, that’s just the way it is.
These are principles that we just have to get used to. We are always the servant, we are functioning in that world of energy, Krishna is the controller and enjoyer, and we are not the primary energy, we’re secondary subservient energy. We serve the internal potency, that’s the primary energy. So if we do that, then we’re happy. We think, “How can that make me happy?” But why do you like watching a movie? You’re not the one jumping off the building killing those 50 are you? No, you’re just watching it and you’re happy, you understand? So the principle is that your happiness lies in assisting others in doing something. Just by watching you’re happy, let alone if you’re taking part. We have to understand this is how the happiness works, and then we will be able to see ourselves as a servant. This completely changes this whole world that we think is just real and practical into actually – why do we say Krishna’s material pastimes? This the universal thought. So Krishna and his potency manifest everything here, but you see it in connection with Krishna and you’re dealing with the internal potency and that’s why you make spiritual advancement. If you don’t see it in connection with Krishna then you’re dealing with Maha-Maya. If you can see it connected then it’s Yoga-Maya, if you don’t see it connected then it’s Maha-Maya. It’s the same thing. Let’s say you see a lady and you recognize that she is somebody’s wife and deal with her on that platform. Will she interact with you? Yes. Now, what if you come up and think “she may have a husband but I don’t care, maybe I can make it with this one”. Is she going to interact with you? No. Or, you might get a slap in the face, or the best part is if her husband comes over and you find out he’s just a UFC Heavy Weight champion and you didn’t quite calculate him into all this and he punches you into the next century. Hopefully people are different in the next century so that things will work out better for you right?
So that’s how Krishna’s energies work. If you see it in relationship with Krishna then things work very nicely, if you don’t see it in relationship with Krishna then it doesn’t work so nicely. Now what does not so nicely mean? It may mean that in a material sense it mechanically works and you got the result you want but just because you got the result doesn’t mean that it makes you happy. You’ll say “if I get this then I’ll be happy”. And then once you get it you just immediately think of the next thing. So we’re always going for the happy but we never have happiness. There’s that moment that when you get something, and in that moment you’re happy. But human experience works in an 11th of a second – you can perceive in 11th of a second – so that’s what is called in the sastra a moment. You happiness lasted an 11th of a second. When you got it, you had your moment and then it’s in the past so you’re only thinking about how you have it, you’re no longer experiencing that feeling of having gotten it. That’s the material happiness. But Krishna’s eternal, you’re eternal, and his internal potencies are eternal, so if you connect with that happiness, that’s eternal. All this other stuff is not, it just doesn’t work. If you think about it, it doesn’t work. If it worked, why do we have this syndrome called mid-life crisis? Mid-life crisis is about all those things that you as a young person decided “this is what I’m going to do with my life” and you worked for it and when you hit 50 you figured out it didn’t work. So then you make a new plan, you try something else, and that’s not also going to work. But whatever it is you’re going to die before you get there so don’t worry. If you live to 100, then you can go through your second end-of-life crisis. It takes 30 years to kind of figure it out, so if you live to 80 you can – well actually it’s 90 because in the Sastra it says a person who’s 90 years old, no matter what their status is, you know what varna asham they are, they’re respected by everybody because they’ve kind of figured out that nothing here works really well. They’re very committed to that.
Now what we’re talking about is very simple, but to apply this we have to start out with something and then through practice you’ll find over the years that this becomes easier. This isn’t one of those quick fix things, because you’ve been here a long time right? You know, we talk about unlimited years; the word we use is Anadi because we don’t know how long we’ve been here. So it’s a matter of you taking this and applying it and you’ll see that you’re able to find Krishna in things, in this and that. You’ll look first in those areas that are most important to you. Whatever comes easy, you’ll look there. You might have too much attachment to some things and you can’t get involved with them and analyze them without getting too emotionally distressed so pick something that’s easier, like the potpourri sitting on the corner on the little stand there. Pick something that may be less of a problem, like your toothpaste.
So this is the basic progression, to avoid falling into the trap of “in the direct elements of sadhana but in everything else we’re not”, this is how one can actually connect it in a dynamic way and again, it doesn’t matter what it is, because as we’ve said everything is Krishna. And it’s not a matter of “oh because it’s Krishna it’s okay”. That’s all right if you’re a Braman-vadi, but we worship Bhagavan so ultimately we are dealing with that because that’s our conditioned nature and we’re attached to it. And because of those attachments that are not to Krishna, we’re connecting them to Krishna so we’re bringing our attachments to Krishna. The end-game, though, is the element of what pleases Krishna. If we’re just the servant then it’s not a matter of sense gratification. In other words if we look at a situation and analyze it for sense gratification then that’s materialistic, but if we look at the situation and analyze it for service, then that’s devotional. This is the conclusion that Krishna has given in the Gita. And we can make the same progression using whatever we have right now. It’s not a matter of something being either materialistic or devotional and there’s nothing in between. The point is to connect whatever you have now and make that progress. Any questions on that?
Q: In the process of connecting everything to Krishna, how do we recognize that we’re not in illusion but not spend all day thinking about how we’re connecting to Krishna and not getting anything done all day?
A: What you’re saying is by thinking you get nothing done so when you drive you don’t think right? So anybody here if they value their lives, don’t drive with this guy. So you’re thinking that if I think, I get nothing done. So you’re saying the moodha is like the perfection of human development
Q: That’s not what I meant.
A: But that’s what you said. In other words, we have to be very careful. What you’re doing now, think about it while you’re doing it because consciousness is something you can do while an activity is going on, just like you can be conscious while you’re hitting the hammer on the nail to not miss and hit your finger, you can do that. Now if we’re saying, “oh if we think about it then we’re not going to be able to hit the hammer and the nail”, that’s not true. It’s actually only the people who think that get ahead. The reason you just have a job and you’re not the one the runs the company is because you don’t think. And the guy that runs the company, he thinks. And the billionaire, he really thinks. So we have to be very careful about being satisfied with this modha mentality that we don’t think, just drug along and do whatever we’re told. The advertisement says “if I buy these pants and I do this and that…he’s with a girl therefore if I buy those pants I’ll be with a girl”. But the guy with the pants is probably gay and he probably got $1000 for that picture. So it’s nothing to do with the girl. It’s has to do with him making money. Does that make sense? We can think and do and we won’t have a problem. It’s not like patting your head and rubbing your stomach or something – it’s not one of those kinds of things. We can actually do the two together. That’s what humans can do that animals can’t. In a given situation, animals can only emote and then act. In the same situation, a human being has feelings but at the same time he can also think. So even though he was driven by the feelings, he is able to control those feelings and use his intelligence to do what’s correct. So they’re not contradictory. It’s not a bad thing to think, it’s only bad if one only thinks and doesn’t act. That’s why we opened the whole discussion with how one has to apply the teachings, and that’s what yesterday’s discussion was about, to make it really clear that we will be active. But that activity should be based on knowledge not just on sentiment. The reason we do something is because of the sentiment, but if we’re going to be successful at it it’s because of the knowledge. So the two go together.
Q: What I meant I suppose is say Arjuna after hearing the teachings of Krishna went into the battle field and with full concentration –
A: But you’re not living in the temple. The temple President use that on you to get you to do what you’re supposed to do without worrying about something. “What about this?” no don’t argue with the Arjuna.
It works really well as a management tool, but the thing you have to understand is, was he [Arjuna] not conscious of who was on the battlefield and what direction he was moving or the speed that he had to shoot, like if they’re shooting this weapon therefore I have to counter with that weapon? And those potencies are Krishna’s potencies right? And in here he’s fighting under Krishna’s direction, but are you in the toilet wiping your backside with toilet paper because Krishna wanted you to?
Q: That’s what I’m getting to –
A: Yeah, but the point is that it’s not directed by Krishna so I wouldn’t quite compare yourself to Arjuna. Here, like that, you know.
Q: So that’s what I’m thinking, what is that distinction between being in that illusion that it’s the direct –
A: But it’s not a matter of direct. What I’ve been talking about here is all indirect. The reason you’re doing it is because you’re attached to it – it’s got nothing to do with Krishna. You know, you’ve got earrings, you wear that T-shirt, those pants, you got that ring on your finger you wear that particular watch with the leather band, you know that’s all you – it’s nothing to do with Krishna, zero, zip. But now you can take those things and find why you’re doing them and connect that to Krishna. That’s what we’re talking about. But unless you think about it Krishna won’t be there. Krishna’s there with his internal potency, but you won’t be part of that interaction unless you recognize it, otherwise you’re just interacting with Maya. That’s what we’re talking about. So if you want those things to continually take you away while your chanting is taking you towards – maybe you like things like that. We don’t like how in this moment the wife is very happy and we just say one thing and it goes the other way, but somehow or another we love the idea of “I’m in my material life here and here I’m chanting Hare Krishna”. We should be consistent. If you don’t like the one, then it means you’re not really having fun with the other. If you’re conscious – it works. What we’re talking about here is just principle: if you’re conscious, it works. Feelings lead to attachments, just like we’re attached to the family, so that attachment will drive us to interact with the family. But what we do with that attachment, do we raise it in Krishna conscious, do we somehow or another benefit Krishna, or do we try to get what we can out of the relationship and that’s all that’s important? Attachment is not the problem. The problem is whether we see that attachment connected to Krishna or not. That’s what we’re dealing with. So it’s very practically applicable because it’s very simple. We’ve only explained the fundaments of it, so it’s understandable. We haven’t gotten into anything really deep where our own emotional attachments might cloud the issue. You know, like if we take this and apply it to the masculine/feminine principle. That’s where then things start to cloud, but because we’re basically talking about dead matter, we’ll accept the principle. That’s why generally in examples I use dead matter. The businessman might be a crack businessman but his family life is disgusting (he’s already been divorced three times and all that). Why, because he can’t see that the principle of how things function is the same. It’s the same electricity. He knows how to apply it in the blender, but he can’t figure out that you take the refrigerator and take the plug and plug it in and it works. So it’s the same principle. He’s there in the moment on the market – what’s the market doing right now? He’s looking at the stocks, he’s looking at the different announcements, he knows when the Economic Minister makes an announcement, that this particular stock is either going to drop or go up. So it’s in a moment and he’s waiting for it and he’s dealing with that, but when he walks home, he won’t deal in the moment with his wife. He thinks that it’s just supposed to happen because he bought a house, or because he gave her a ring so many years ago, or because she’s got a kid that’s now five. What’s happening right this moment when you walk in the door, whatever mood she’s in you deal with that right there, that’s all you have to do. We’re not talking about that stuff because that creates riots. We’re just talking about general philosophy right here that’s universally applicable in anything. So it’s usable. Don’t fall prey to the idea “I can’t think and work at the same time”. I can’t be conscious and work at the same time. Arjuna is not absorbed in Krishna and just rolling around on the ground in ecstasy, no he’s thinking how to do this for Krishna and what would be the best thing. He wants to win the war, is he just out there, killing foot soldiers? No he’s attacking the Kshatriyas. Bhishma is out killing the foot soldiers because he doesn’t want to be involved. He’s not trying to win the war; he’s just out there trying to kill foot soldiers. But Arjuna is specifically targeting to win this war for Krishna. So when we say it’s not that we’re thinking of Krishna as Bhagavan, he is, he’s thinking of Krishna as Braman in Paramatma, how it’s working in the mechanics of material energy. This just emphasizes what we’re talking about, it’s just that whoever told you that to get you to do the work didn’t know how to connect the mechanics of what you’re doing to Krishna. And did it work? No, he had to find out it didn’t.
Q: Can you give an example of how we can use the principles of when we want something it’s not coming and when we don’t it comes? Like how we can use it in our spiritual life?
A: How we can use it in our spiritual life? How are you defining spiritual life here?
Q: To endeavor to try to become Krishna Conscious.
A: What endeavor is that?
Q: Um…
A: You know what I’m saying? You’re saying I should be specific so your question should be specific.
Q: Um…collecting for Krishna everything as a part of sadhana.
A: As a part of sadhana, okay, so not outside of sadhana?
Q: Sorry, outside of sadhana.
A: Outside of sadhana, so any particular application you want to apply it in, because I’ve given examples already but I’d like to go with something that would mean something to you. Okay, it’s just like this- if I want to go fast with the car, can I just go fast when I want? No I have to wait for an area where the road is straight; I can’t go fast on the curves. You have to wait until that actually happens, so you has to be aware of the situation, when you want it it’s not there. And it’s only there when it is because that’s what it can do. It’s not like I can go fast because I want it to go fast, more like I can go fast because that’s what’s actually available now. It’s just like the kids in the backseat of the car when you’re driving somewhere and they say, “Are we there yet?” and you say “no no no, it will be another three hours”. And they say again, “Are we there yet?” and you say, “No, it’s only been three seconds”. And a few seconds after that they say “Are we there yet?” and you shout, “No, just shut up!” The point is that it’s a balance, as one moves the one way, the other moves the other. The pigeon that comes down and puffs himself up and does his whole little dance for the female pigeon, what does the female pigeon do? Does she go, oh what a nice pigeon or does she just fly away?
Q: She’ll fly away.
A: Yeah, so that’s how it works. When you’re not looking for it, that’s when you get the attention. When you’re trying to get the attention, you’ll never get it. When the guy is just sitting on the corner looking cool, the girls never look. Right, the guys are talking “oh yeah, we look cool” but the girls think they look like a bunch of dweebs. So when you’re looking for something you’re not going to get it. You’re only going to get it when you’re not looking for it. In practical application that means that you’ve learned the field and you’re applying it, but the result is up to Krishna. That’s why the principle of Nishkarmya is there. You want the result then you won’t get it, or it will be very hard, or even if you do get it, it still won’t satisfy you. But if you’re trying to get the result for Krishna, you’re simply focusing on the endeavor because the relationship between you and another entity is in the endeavor.
Husband/wife, that is a legal definition of the relationship. But what makes those two people husband and wife…because it says so on paper?
Q: The relationship?
A: That is the relationship on paper, they’re husband and wife – try marrying someone else, the cops will come and knock on your door because it says on the paper you’re husband and wife.
Q: The exchanges?
A: The exchanges, that means the interaction. That means the application of your understanding of the field. So if you’re trying to get a specific result, you can only get the result at the speed, or that the field is willing to give. You want an eggplant, so you plow the field and you put the seed in the ground. Then it will grow into an eggplant. So can you have the eggplant yesterday? No, only women can do that – men have to wait. Right? So, that means you have to plow the field. You can’t just go out there and throw some seed and go “okay are there eggplants?” You have to pick up the plow, pick out the weeds, this and that. Nourish it, water it, and all these different things. Then, with time, you will get your eggplant. The point is that the result comes on its own time. You’re simply there to perform your duty – that’s what Krishna’s saying you do there, perform your duty, with knowledge, without attachment (which was your point), thinking of him. And it should be for him. This is what Krishna’s saying that we should do. So all we’ve done is taken that point and just very technically explained it. Because you’ll say, “oh okay that’s nice, but then there’s my real life”. I just wanted to say there is no such thing as your real life. What you call your real life is illusion. There’s only Krishna Consciousness or there’s Maya – that’s all there is. There’s no ‘real-life’. Real life is Krishna Consciousness and illusion is illusion. It may be an important illusion, it may be a very absorbing illusion, but it’s still an illusion. A dream is a dream. It may be very absorbing and it may be very influential, but it’s still a dream. Does that make sense? So the element of Nishkarmya means that you’re performing the activity because that’s what you’re supposed to do. And then the result you’re looking for will come with time if you are conscious of what you’re doing right now. If you’re not conscious of the present you won’t get the result you’re looking for. But if you’re looking at the future, that’s another passion. The present is not going to function because the present is in the mode of goodness. The past is in the mode of ignorance. So if you’re looking at the past or the future then you’re not in the present that’s why thing go wrong. We’re all sitting here thinking “yeah I’ll do this and all that, and I’ll make so much [money] and all this” and we don’t all that much money…why not? Someone else is doing it and making lots of money, why? Because he’s not thinking about how much he is going to make. He’s made his plan, figured out this is how much he can make and then just concentrates on the present until the result comes. He never looks at the future. He knows the plan and knows that right now if he does this and keeps focusing on that – he knows where he is going and then if what he’s doing isn’t going towards then he knows what has to be done to correct it. That’s all they’re looking at. The successful people of this world, that’s what they do that the not-so-successful people don’t – they function in the present consistently. That’s why they get results. So if you think and you’re not worried about the future, that’s where you’re going to get your results. The problem is we’re afraid of being situated there because we’re so used to being in the other two – being in the future or being in the past. So we’re used to passion and we’re used to ignorance, we’re just not used to goodness.
Q: Is it the same for Sadhana?
A: It’s the same for anything. All right you want to cook, if you’re sitting there thinking “yeah I put it on the fire and it’s going to be so nice and all the friends are going to enjoy it and they’re going to be so happy and it’ll be really good” and then it burns, you’ll be out of luck. No, if you want to cook, you have to be focusing on what’s happening right now, don’t worry about how later everyone’s is going to be in ecstasy and all that, you worry about that when the time comes.
Q: Hi, just a question. So first do we gage what the desirable result is, or do we first gain knowledge of the field and see what the result could be?
A: You can start either way. In strategic planning they call it two different things, but they’re really the same. You can start from what you have and where you want to go, or you can start from where you want to go – it’s just the same thing. You have to know what’s there, you have to know what it can do (what results it can gain), you have to know the method of attaining that, and then what’s your part in it. If you know these four, then that’s called knowledge, that’s called focusing or concentration. Then you practically make the endeavor and it will practically get you the result.
Q: So with the field getting results on time is that appropriated to Daiva?
A: Yes, that’s Daiva. You have the focus, you have the endeavor, and you have Daiva. Because are you actually making it happen? When you put the things in the blender and you push the button, you’ll say “I made this” but did you actually do it? No, the blender does. And the blender will do it in its own time. So what’s happening is –this is a whole other discussion, a whole other area – it’s called causation. We discussed it today but not from that viewpoint. It means that we have the material, we have the operative cause, which is us performing the activity, but we have the material cause which is where nature actually transforms. If you follow the laws of nature she will transform it to the results you want, you don’t actually do it, you just have to do what’s there. Now, what you are doing is from the reflection, as we said, Krishna is the ultimate cause, then the formal cause is the different forms that Lakshmi takes of what are the methods and the elements that are used to gain that, that’s the transcendental element and then that’s reflected here. So you perform the activity and then the internal nature transforms so you don’t actually make that happen. You can only follow methods that are actually established – you can’t do something outside the laws of nature. And then it’s up to nature itself to transform – you having followed the law – it will transform in its own time. You put the potatoes in the water and then they boil and they get soft, but you didn’t make them soft, the boiling process made them soft. But you were able to take part as an assistant in the process. So even on the mundane plane, you’re still the assistant. Anything’s like that – you invest in a business, but economics is its own thing. You do the right things according to the laws of economics and then that field will transform and you will be part of that team. You don’t follow the laws, you won’t get it. Does that make sense?
Q: A question today you said that Krishna is potency and we see that potency and that’s how we see that Krishna is in everything, but yesterday you said that’s the true potency of Maya. How would we differentiate the potency of Maya and the potency of Krishna?
A: The potency of Maya is the potency of Krishna, but it’s a matter of whether you are working with the internal potency or the external potency, so mahamaya or yogamaya. Mahamaya is, “I see the situation and I analyze it for my own benefit”. Yogamaya is, “I see the situation and I analyze it for what benefit I can get for Krishna”.
Q: But still it’s Maya –
A: Mechanically Maya means energy. Yogamaya means internal potencies, spiritual –
Q: It comes along with when you’re trying to do it Krishna but it stops you –
A: No one stops you, you stop yourself. You know what I’m saying.
Q: I stop myself because –
A: I mean if you jumped into the ocean and then when you came out and you were all blue and freezing to death and you got a cold, it was you jumped into the ocean, Maya didn’t come along and just pick you up and toss you in there. One might question – what happens when the Tsunami comes, I didn’t want to jump in, I was on the 5th floor and I got wet! The point is that this is all part of the same principle, it’s just being looked at from different perspectives.
Q: So how you define Yogamaya?
A: Yogamaya means the Lord’s potency engaged in his service. In other words, that is being done for Krishna’s pleasure. Mahamaya means you’re doing it for your own pleasure. The point is that what we’re conscious of that we connect to Krishna, and then because Krishna’s eternal, he’s always happy, and therefore we’ll be happy on the eternal platform. But if we don’t see the connection with Krishna, even though it is Krishna, then we will suffer the element of that temporariness. Because when we’re talking about the reflection, internality of the soul, Krishna, everything’s made of Sat Chit Ananda. But in the reflection, Sat becomes Asat – temporary, Chit which is knowledge becomes lack of knowledge – mundane endeavors, and Ananda your connection with Krishna is your material Rasa that you’re trying to get something from, that somehow or another you never get. Consider Prahlada Maharaj “happiness is heard about, but no one’s ever gotten it”. So it’s a very practical element, but there’s so many aspects to look at that and just trying to discuss 18 chapters in two days when it would usually take eight months or a year.
Q: If there is no happiness in this world…
A: And then, how much is that compared to? You’re looking at that moment, but you can basically count those moments. You can remember, “Well I saw this guy” – but did you see the rest of his life? There is that moment but because the soul is by nature Ananda, you only remember the happiness. It means if there’s distress you remember it for some time but the soul can’t actually relate to distress so that’s why you forget it. Something that when you were younger was a total absolute freak-out, when you’re sitting around with your buddies and your 50-60 years old, you’re laughing about it because you’ve forgotten the pain, because the soul doesn’t actually relate to that. So you only remember those little bits that might’ve had something happy or humorous about them. It’s Rasa so it’s there, but the point is that that happiness that they’re experiencing is based on gaining something that they were looking for, but once they’ve gain it then they already have it and it’s no longer in the realm of happiness, of Ananda, it moves back to the field which is Sambanda. It moves back to the relationship, it just becomes part of the field. I want the house, so it’s my goal, but once I have the house it’s not a goal anymore. Now it’s part of my field of activity. Now you have to do something with the house, “okay let’s invite friends over” so that’s a goal, but once your friends have been over then it goes back down to field. Now you’re a guy who invites friends over and they had a good time. So now you can do that again. Everything that you do is connected. Pradyumna and Aniruddha are really connected because Pradyumna is your inspiration to do something. Aniruddha is your need but once you attain a goal, that goal goes back to Pradyumna. And then there’s more of the field that you can become inspired by. So that’s why if you’re not active, nothing’s moving. If you’re not performing an action then there’s no result so everything just shuts down. That’s why if you give up material result, material life stops, though you’re still active. This is the difference between us and other spiritual groups. Because they think that stopping material life means stopping interacting with material energy. But we say, stop interacting as if you were material energy and interact as Krishna’s energy. So the activity still goes on and the nature of the soul is still being dealt with. But the material life ends because you’re not seeing the connection. You’re seeing in connection with Krishna and therefore it’s spiritual. It’s a very dynamic process but one has to be aware of it. For the direct elements, whether you’re aware or not aware, they’ll work, but what we’re talking about is the indirect elements, your varna and asham – what do you do as an occupation, how are you situated in or outside of family life, because when we talk about being real this is what we mean – what I do to make money to take care of my situation at home. My personal situation, that’s it – it’s nothing more than that. So Vedas have already defined varnashrama so what we’ve been discussing Daiva-Varnashrama. What I’ve explained is the mechanics of Daiva-Varnashrama. People may say “O Varnashrama doesn’t work today, people today they don’t have kids by having sex they just meditate or something. When they eat food they don’t put it in their mouth, it just sits in the refrigerator and they become nourished”. There’s this illusion that something’s changed. It’s the same old material world that’s always been there. We think it’s a new thing that people are living in apartments. You know who invented apartments? The Romans. And that was cosmopolitan. Caesar was so good at what he did because his mother had a seven-story apartment building and in those days the guy who owned it lived on the ground floor so he wouldn’t have to climb up the stairs, now it’s the top floor. In Caesar’s building there were people from all over the Roman Empire (and they had conquered most of the known world at that time) so he spoke 7 languages because as a kid he grew up with all those people living in his building. That’s why when he went out; he could actually play the role of the local. That’s how he got the Gauls. He went in there and dressed like them and spoke their language and they thought he was one of them. So all this business about “it’s new living in an apartment building”, no it’s not, the Romans did that. Basically everything goes back to them, the stock market goes back to them – of course then it was commodities on the market. Now, you can deal in stocks of Michael Jackson or something. I think his stock has crashed, but maybe someone else, Beyonce or something like that. I’m not joking, go online check out stocks on anybody, they do that. You know what I’m saying it’s got nothing to do with the person, it’s just that people value it so they buy it, if they don’t value it they sell it – it’s all there. There’s nothing that’s not from the old. Just because we change and we don’t button the sleeves we think we’re so different. But before they would not button the sleeves and then roll up the sleeves so that if you wanted it buttoned you could roll it down. But the concept of button and unbutton, it was always there. Nothing’s changed, but this illusion that we’re so special and so unique and the idea of “I’ve got to have some way to make money that’s going to maintain my personal lifestyle” that principle is somehow or another different. You’re either married or not married. In a relationship or not, that’s basically all there is – is there another option? And then we either have something that makes us money and we’re going to do that by some intellectual aspect, some administrative aspect, some business aspect, or we’re going to work with someone else who’s doing one of those other three. Is there a fourth, another option? No, so it hasn’t changed. So what we’re describing is Daiva-Varnashrama how to see your life in connection to Krishna that’s it. So Prabhupada talked about these things, he said all these things; I’m only talking from his book. So it’s all there, it’s not something new. Yesterday when we talked, we barely mentioned anything about what you’re accustomed to hearing as Krishna Consciousness. I could take our conversation and give it to business men and they’d go “wow”. Because that is the mechanics of how the creation works. The cosmo creation. But knowing that you can either get eternal benefit from operating it or you can just get some temporary benefits – which would you do? If I said, invest $1 and you’ll get $2 back or you can invest $1 and get billions of dollars back, which would you do? So we’re saying it’s the same endeavor that you’re doing now, the same microwave dinner that you’re eating now, if you can see Krishna connected with it then you get spiritual benefit which is eternal or you’ll just get something that’s hot that may kill you or it may not. That’s what we’re talking about, but we have all these issues right because we only have a couple of days so we’re trying to avoid all these issues. Because otherwise with just one of these issues we’re talking about weeks of conversation.
